Posts by cognizant dissident

Jaguar Bass, it's not that it takes a Christian do do bad things. Dawkins argument is that belief in God has not been a motivating force for good in this world. It does not make one a better person to be a theist. However, belief in stories about God and what he wants has been a motivating force in the death of millions over the years.

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

Brother Dan, what are these absolute moral laws and where did they come from? Earlier you said Christianity was the starting point for all things. Well, then where was the absolute morality provided to all the people who lived before Christ? Were they left without moral law for all those thousands of years? What about all the billions of Indians and Asians and Muslims who have never had the opportunity to read the Bible? Are they left not knowing absolute moral law? If absolute moral law is something that God provided within us, then what is the need of the Bible or Christ to point the way? In which case, your previous argument that Christianity is the starting point would not be true, would it?

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

If I, as many others have done, decide that God is the best explanation of all the available evidence, then my belief, my "faith", is grounded in fact.

My apologies Dan, I see that you didn't not actually say you had reviewed ALL the evidence, you just strongly implied it. Again, that is nothing to do with being "huffy" on my part. If you had just pointed out that misperception on my part without the attempt at deflecting with personality characterization, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I can admit when I'm wrong. I never claimed to review all the evidence. I've barely touched the surface.

Incidentally, this is the same problem I had with the analysis of Dawkins. Attack his "tone" and not his arguments.

As far as reviewing all the evidence that you have come across, that doesn't mean much. My father reviews all the evidence he comes across too. He just makes sure he only comes across WTBTS literature. The other problem with your statement above, is the conclusion that if people review all the evidence available and decide God is the best explanation then their faith is is grounded in fact.

Please tell me you don't consider that a logical conclusion. Let me substitute another example and insert it into the same argument and then tell me again if you think it makes sense.

If I live in prehistoric times and I examine all the available evidence that the sun revolves around the earth and rises and sets each day, does that make my faith grounded in fact?

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

What you call gettting "huffy" I call pointing out flawed logic when I see it. You see, we're still arguing definitions.

29

Hi! I'm a new member here

by faqs7719 in

i'm a new member here but i have read this forum from about 6 months ago.. i was born in jw, all my family is jw.. one day i decide to make a research about the prophecies because i thought that would help me strengthen my faith.

i always like the prophecies.

i have started my research with jerusalem 607. hit the google page, start to search and whats up?

cognizant dissident

Oh, I agree with you Ding, there are hundreds of better reasons to throw it out than that!

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

I'm sure that Brother Dan has read them, as he has stated that he has reviewed ALL the available evidence on both sides which means he must have read every religious and scientific book ever written.

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

Arguing with Brother Dan is starting to feel a bit like arguing with Aguest. How can one have a discussion about anything when one cannot even agree on definitions of words? How can one agree on definitions of words when the definitions keep changing to suit the arguments. Or when the only acceptable starting point is accepting the Christian religion as the only absolute moral standard to prove all things. Circular reasoning at its finest. Absolutely nothing to do with ration or logic, which, I believe was Dawkins entire point.

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

cognizant dissident

leavingwt

Your outsider test was interesting to read. It was applying this test that ultimately led me to leave the WTBTS.

I was born in and was always a nerdy, logical little kid, who solved logic problems in my spare time. I often did find the Bible and its teachings illogical, but fear of being beaten for impertinence kept me from saying what I thought throughout most of my childhood and teens. Apparently, physical survival trumps logic. ;-)

The WTBTS successfully debunked every other religion in the world for me, but it's own shortcomings I put aside to wait upon Jehovah. Ironically, it was being called on by the Mormon's that ended up getting me to apply the outsiders test to my own religion.

Two fresh faced, very sincere young Mormon girls called on me, and I took a book of Mormon from them for my reference library. I already was wanting to check those Watchtower references at the source. Well, they kept coming back and tried very hard to get me to study. I had quite a few logical debates with them. They reminded me of myself in my young pioneer days. So sincere and sweet, but deluded.

I had to ask myself though, as a matter of intellectual honesty, if I had not been raised as a JW, and JW's had come to my door with their message, would I find it logical? Would the message itself convince me it was the truth from God? I had to admit, that in all likelihood, if my parents had not raised me JW, I would have thought it just as much hogwash as the Mormon religion. I would have done research into the origins. Why didn't I do that now? I had to admit the answer was fear. Fear of losing my family and my social group.

Here I was, a grown, middle-aged woman, in university on a science scholarship, and I was afraid to ask certain honest sincere questions of certain people. The absurdity of that hit hard. I had to make a choice that I didn't want to live that way.

If one applies that same type of critical thinking to the Bible as they do to the WTBTS and other religions, it MUST also fall. I've come to the conclusion that its also fear that prevents people from doing so. Fear of losing a cultural identity. Fear of dying. Fear of an unknown future. Fear that this really is all there is.

Intellectual honesty is not for the faint of heart.

Anais Nin said, "I've come to realize that when people demanded of me "the truth", what they really wanted was an illusion they could bear to live with".